Crayton and I have been searching for apartments for the past three months. There’s nothing wrong with our current place, but after more than a year here, I’ve thought it’d be great to have more space and more light.
A few days ago, we finally found a place we loved. It’s huge. Floor-to-ceiling windows. Hardwood floors, a master bedroom with enough space for a library/reading area, and a rooftop area where we could put our grill. The dining area has enough space to fit a table for eight people, which is a sueño of mine, because my current table only seats four. (I could have more dinner parties!) The apartment is close to Crayton’s job, our gym and my yoga studio.
When we were leaving, we told the broker that we were very interested.
“I’m glad to hear it,” he said. “There’s another couple who’s interested too, a couple with a baby, but I think the apartment owner will prefer you over them.”
“Why?” we asked.
“They’re Koreans,” he said.
I waited for him to go on. Like — they’re Koreans and they happen to be drug dealers. Or they’re Korean and they happen to have 12 children, and the family won’t fit in the apartment. But the man didn’t say anything else.
“What’s wrong with Koreans?” Crayton asked.
“Oh you know,” the broker said. “They’re very informal.” The word he used was “informales.” “They don’t pay their rent on time. Sometimes they vacate before the contract’s up.”
I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. I stared at the man. He was probably in his early 60’s, and dressed nicely in a slacks and a sport coat.
“That’s racist!” Crayton said.
The broker didn’t even blink. “I’m not saying they’re all like this,” he said. “There are Mexicans, French people, Americans who act the same way. But Koreans, some Koreans, they act that way too.”
I know that racism and classism exists in Mexico — lighter-skinned people here tend to be viewed as more beautiful than darker-skinned, and Crayton and I have been told a few times that because we speak English, we will have no trouble getting into the hottest club. But I’ve never actually witnessed discrimination before, and especially in such a casual way.
The apartment itself is a gem. I’ve looked for three months, and places of this size and character are definitely rare. The question is: do we take it? If we do, are we enabling housing discrimination? The thing is, I have no idea how common this is. For all I know, three-quarters of the places I looked at were the same way and the question just never came up. There’s also the possibility that the broker was completely projecting. Maybe this is how he feels about Koreans, and not how the owner feels. (I sound like I’m trying to convince myself… ugh.)
We happened to see another place in Roma that same week and it’s nice too, although not as big. Crayton’s commute would be 30 minutes instead of 10, and it’s farther away from our gym, yoga, etc. We do not know the beliefs of the owner there, because we didn’t ask.
I don’t know what to think. Crayton, from a few conversations we’ve had, seems to be in favor of telling the man that we’re not interested. He also asked our friend Ale about it — she said we should ask the broker whether the Korean family has asked to fill out the rental contract, and if they have, then they should get first dibs at it. (I did see the apartment first, if that matters.)
Part of me thinks that even if we don’t take it, how will that change anyone’s mind? The owner, if he really does discriminate against Koreans, will just find another gringo or Mexican couple to take our places. Life will move on exactly as before.
Any thoughts?
You are tackling a very big subject here, and I admire you for it.
Since you asked for thoughts: I agree with your friend, Ale.
Also, does the city have any regulations prohibiting racial discrimination of renters? If so, you may be able to report the broker, though you can say adios to this place if you do.
If you do not get this place, and even if the Koreans don’t either, you will know that you had nothing to do with blocking their efforts to rent it. I would like to think there will be a better place for you.
BTW, we spent 5 weeks in S. Korea and we loved it. The culture in general put living in the US to shame. Common decency, politeness, respect of personal space, concern for human comforts and ease — all were obvious and seen daily. Perhaps this is due to a Buddhist influence, but that is only my guess. Positive values are all too often left behind if there is an easier route to take. In Korea, this is not the case.
Listen to you highest calling. It will guide you.
P.S. I am battling apostrophe problems on blogspot, and I see something similar in this post — just to let you know.
I’d put in an offer to rent it and let the owner make their choice. If I was a home owner looking for a renter I would absolutely pick who I thought was best for my investment. A young couple without kids may be a better fit than a couple with a child that may be coloring on walls, peeing on the floor, and touching everything with their dirty hands. (My kids have done all those things in my home, it’s just a fact. I love my kids, but they do destroy things from time to time). I’d pick you simply becuase you currently don’t have a child and would keep my house in better condition. Perhaps you guys would totally trash the place and the couple with the child would leave it better than they found it, but all I could make my decision based on is my past experiences and let the cips fall where they may.
I have never ever ever heard anything about Koreans being “informal” or whatever else. I think this is an isolated case related specifically to your broker, not to the general feeling of the Mexican population.
If you like the apartment and it is available, do take it. Finding an apartment you like and even love is really hard in México City. Go for it.
Im actually really surprised you haven’t come across this but then again I live in a much smaller town. Kind of like in the states this stuff is stronger the smaller the town. People will hire, not hire, rent or not rent to thos who fit their personal racial profiling. And most people don’t bat an eye at it because its so common. Now those peoples ideas of who is better and who is worse may differ and you just have to hope that if your up for the job or the place your the one they like. I don’t think that not taking this apartment would stop this. Next week that couple may find someone who prefers them over and American couple. We are also looking hard for a new place and it is so hard. If its what you like and in your price range go for it.
Lesley,
As I see it, the broker gave you economic reasons for not renting the apartment to the Korean family. He said they pay late and sometimes they leave before the termination date…
He was indeed generalizing all Korean people, thus discriminating them. But I do believe that it is the same discrimination a broker would have between an artist and a lawyer, where a lawyer would be perceived to have a more secure income stream than the artist, even if that isn’t true.
I suggest you to try to speak directly with the owner to see what are her feelings about Koreans living in her apartment. If you find that her reluctance to rent to the Korean family is based on real racism instead of previous experience or other economic reason (as Rachel described above), then walk away. Even if it is not your fault, I think that you will be doing the right thing. Maybe someday, these small actions will eradicate hundreds of years of racism in Mexico.
Kind regards,
Santiago Gómez
Hey guys,
Unfortunately, that kind of conversation is acceptable sometimes in Mexico/Latin America, especially in a situation where the broker thought you “thought like he did.” It probably reflects more on the broker’s attitude, education and “informal” behavior more than anything. It’s also not good for business, especially when dealing with Americans (or foreigners). I say meet with the owner and feel him out. Heck, even ask about the competition. And if you feel like he was fair/not fair then make a decision. Right now, youre making a decision based off a broker and his words. Maybe he really is an extension of the owner. Or maybe the owner is cool, a good person and will be fair. But then again, maybe the owner thinks: “we can either give the apartment to the non-paying Koreans or the self-righteous Americans. I really don’t care as long as I get paid on time!” You just never know until you get a feel for the guy. Either way, it’s just an apartment. You guys will either live in that great apartment or find another great apartment because you guys are great and the fact that you guys are discussing this topic only reiterates that fact.
Very interesting post, Lesley. I don’t want to give you any advice, because you have to decide what let’s you sleep at night. My only thought is that, unless you do an investigation, you have no way of knowing what’s in the heart of either owner. All you know is the broker is a jerk.
Yes, you take it. It’s the owner’s choice to be racist, or whatever. You not taking it is not going to guarantee the Koreans get it. And I could go on and on. But, yes – offer and sleep well at night. And I am offering my opinion because you asked. Good luck!
Lesley, there are no anti-discrimination laws in Mexico similar to the ones you know in the USA. If you glance through employment classifieds in any newspaper, or look at jobs posted outside businesses, you’ll see that there is no limit to gender, age or marital status discrimination. One wording used to discriminate is “de buena presentación”, which can cover everything from skin color to hair to weight to–well, to anything that the employer can think up. I’m sure that the only reason you don’t see discrimination by nationality is that generally, foreigners aren’t out there looking for jobs.
There are no anti-discrimination laws in Mexico about renters, either. Common wording in for-rent ads: “Solo damas”. “No niños”. “Solo recién casados”. “Unicamente caballeros”.
In many ways, Mexico is still very much old-world. In other ways, Mexico is very 21st century.
Take the apartment where you think you will be happiest.
Cristina
Mexico Cooks explained it best. Unfortunately, there are no anti-discrimination laws in Mexico.
Now, for my two centavos…If you can, speak with the owner before making any decisions. Odds are that the ideas expressed by the broker aren’t those of the owner.
Best of luck to you, amiga!
I am totally not surprised by this. I live in a place where white skin is a full pass for so much, it is a fact of living in Hong Kong, but it is also a label for being taken advantage of, therein lies the quid pro quo, I guess.
I would take the apartment. If you like the place and you have no real knowledge of the owners actual sentiments (and you saw it first) AND who is to say that this is not going on in every other place you look at, just without acknowledgment? You may end up unable to believe anyone is renting to you for any reason other than your palatable ethnicity.
In Hong Kong, a white face gets you all sorts of privilege as I mentioned, but also gets you locked out of a lot of stuff too – like apartments. To be Chinese is a great advantage in any kind of deal with property and if you are Korean or SE Asia or S Asian – of any persuasion – don’t even think about being black… aiyah! Further, I know I get better prices and treatment when I go out with my local friends… and I can’t get mad about it, it is just how it is here. It is a tricky situation to be sure, but ethnic nepotism is a reality – when you are faced with the opposite side of it, what will you do? As I accept discrimination on one side, I accept the privilege on the other.
It seems somehow balanced.
Or at least I have justified it well enough to get a good night’s rest. =/
Amanda: You bring up a really good point that I didn’t really articulate well in this post. As an American living in a different country, I’ve been really forced to examine the fact that my universal truths might not be as true as I thought — maybe a lot of what I believe, and my actions, are purely cultural. Is the fact that I’m disgusted by housing discrimination, even just the mere hint of it, an American trait? Does that fact that I’m even *having* this conversation just so totally American?
I think on one hand you’re right — I have to accept that “it’s just how it is here,” because truthfully, I love living in Mexico, and I don’t want to live anywhere else. But on the other hand, I can tell the owner than his broker’s comments disturbed us. He may just think we’re weird Americans.
Hi Leslie,
Other’s have said it too but basically the reason for not taking the place would be because the thought of “racism” being involved makes you uncomfortable and rightly so). It seems that the only way that you can assuage your conscience would be to talk to the owner about it. If you don’t talk to the owner then you won’t know if you are taking a stand against the wrong person (owner vs. broker) for the right reason or just missing out on a good thing for the wrong reason. If you talk to the owner and find that you don’t feel comfortable with his actions and reasons and refuse to take the apartment then you will have at least shown him that you find what he is doing is wrong and are not willing to deal with someone who acts/thinks that way. This way whichever path you take your conscience will be clear. Buena suerte.
It seems that this is the ONLY mexican point of view, and as far as I can guess you read and speak fluently spanish, lo dire en español.
No creo para nada que se trate de un caso de racismo en contra de coreanos en particular. Se trata de que la comunidad coreana en México y particularmente en la ciudad de México es la responsable o se ocupa mayoritariamente del mercado de falsificaciones, de introducir mercancia sin pago de aranceles o de contrabando, incluso a nivel de mafias de comerciantes. Si has asistido algun día a la zona de tepito, el centro histórico donde aún hay ambulantes, los líderes de esas cofradías de comerciantes …no muy legales…son coreanos.
Asi que toma el departamento no es racismo, es la natural precaución de un propietario en un país donde hay poca protección legal sobre las propiedades a que le quiten el departamento el gobierno ( por ley) si su inquilino lo usa para actividades fuera de la ley.
Adriana: Gracias por compartir tu opinión. No sabía nada de la comunidad coreana y el mercado de falsificaciones. Todavía no sé si eso apoya el derecho del inmobiliaria hacer grandes generalizaciones sobre los coreanos como comunidad, de que no pagan la renta a tiempo o que en éste departamento una familia coreana — simplemente por ser coreana — va a usar su hogar para actividades ilegales. Pero bueno. Agradezco tu punto de vista.
To Kathleen, Alice, Rachel, Amanda, Santiago, Jesse, Kristine, Julie, Leslie, Scooter and Mexico Cooks: Thank you so much for your thoughtful commentary. We’re going to try and make an appointment with the owner tomorrow to get more information.
Really, really appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this!
Ohh, this sounds sooo familiar… but in the opposite sense…
I had a similar experience when I moved to Germany as a grad student a couple of years ago. Once I got to Hamburg, it took me ages to find an apartment. I was told by several Turkish/Polish/Latin friends (…see a trend here?) that it is extremely hard to get an affordable flat for students without it being a total dump. And that’s exactly how it went, after several months of living in a hostel, I finally found my very own overpriced dump.
However, my boyfriend (who is Norwegian and was also a student at the same masters program) found a very nice, big (and cheap!) apartment in a couple of days. Well, back then I didn’t think much about it… you know, some people are just lucky.
When we decided to move in together, we looked for apartments online, and, since he was out of the country at the time, it was me who got in touch with the brokers and visited the apartments and all that. The response was always the same: “we have a long waiting list, we’ll get in touch with you” blah blah… of course, they never called me back.
My boyfriend, sensing that something fishy was going on, decided to contact them all over again (as a different person, so to say) and again, within a couple of days, he got the confirmation on 3 apartments that have previously ignored me… 3 of them!!!
It really makes you wonder, did they ignore me because I mentioned I was Mexican? The first apartment… well I can understand, foreign students don’t have much of an income, but he was a foreign student as well, and yet he got a nicer, cheaper apartment than me in a matter of days! The second time around, we both presented the same arguments: we both have very good jobs, we have a very stable income and yet they ignored me… but they decided to take him instead because… he has a Norwegian passport?!
Oh, how the tables turn!! :p
So, if you ask me.. don’t take it. I know it is hard to get a nice apartment with a good location in this juggernaut of a city, but really, this whole attitude (blatant racism in my humble opinion), in Mexico or in Germany, is just WRONG!! Don’t condone it with your hard earned pesitos…
Just my 2 cents!!
I just wanted to add that Aubrey threw up on the wall, door frame, and carpet last night. See, kids are gross. 😉 Good luck making your decision!
Right on, bun! To take advantage of racism in rentals is to tacitly support this heinous practice, whether there is a law or not that prohibits this.
…just my 2 pesos worth…again. Does that make if 4 pesos? 🙂
First, I live in Morelia, Michoacán and have lived in Mexico for 30 years, just so you know that I’m not speaking theoretically or without knowledge of the situation here.
Some of you have suggested that Lesley ought to bring this ‘racism’ to the attention of the owner. Unfortunately, that’s problematic for several reasons. One reason, of course, is that there is no real consciousness in this country that racism is a problem in Mexico. Consciousness of racism is, as Lesley suggested it might be, a ‘gringoism’, not a universally accepted truth. Bringing the attitude of the broker to the attention of the owner does several things, none positive.
–1. It makes the broker lose face with his boss (the owner of the property). Losing face is serious business in Mexico, just as it is in Asia.
–2. It makes the owner lose face with Lesley and her husband–the owner thinks ‘these foreigners believe themselves to be superior to me’.
–3. It makes the owner feel that he’s stupid.
–4. It makes Lesley and her husband, in spite of the fact that they are politically correct, lose face with the owner. ‘Politically correct’ doesn’t really exist as a general concept in Mexico.
–5. It will not change anything EXCEPT to make everyone feel bad about him/herself. Neither the owner nor the broker will have his or her consciousness raised; the Mexican mentality doesn’t operate that way yet. The only people who feel ‘better’ in a very small way are Lesley and her husband, who will probably feel that they have done the right thing–but is it ‘correct’ to make others feel less-than while one makes oneself feel ‘better-than’?
–6. Neither Lesley and her husband nor the Korean family will get the apartment. The broker will still be loathe to rent to Koreans and all parties will think, “Híjole, qué bueno que no les rentamos la depo a estes extranjeros locos. Si ya nos ofendieron con comentarios sobre el racismo, imagínense cúales otros problemas nos hubieron causado en el futuro!”
A long time ago, someone said to me, “Would you rather be right, or would you rather be happy?” Sometimes it’s just not possible to be both. I think this situation is one of those times.
Cristina
Lesley–This is a very interesting story and I love the discussion it provoked. Personally I believe that racism, bias, prejudice, classism, discrimination etc exist everywhere, even the United States. What pops out at me is that the broker voiced what others only think. For me, I would set aside my feelings on the comment and look at this as a business transaction–is the price fair? how will the owner respond to building problems? If you think the owner will be reasonable to deal with, go for the apartment.
I am very much interested in the rental process in Mexico City. It is personal as my husband and I will be looking for a rental of an apartment or condo in DF in the second half of this year. I thought we would simply walk around Roma or Condesa and look for signs of apartments for rent. Is this a good idea or not? Would you consider writing about the rental process?
Joan
Whatever you decide, I think you should write to the Ethicist. This shit is a problem the world over, as some of the comments demonstrate.
I first encountered Mexican anti-Koreanism about 3 years ago. I’d never generalize from this, of course, but your experience is not an isolated incident.
http://burrohall.blogspot.com/2007/07/koreans-mexicos-mexicans.html
No pude seguir tu comentario porque no confirmé la acción, pero….aún sin hacer generalizaciones. LA LEY dice que si tu propiedad es usada para actividades delictivas te LA QUITAN! Yo no correría el riesgo…sin discriminar a nadie..haría todas las verificaciones pero en el DF no conozco coreanos en ningun negocio lícito.
Además ahora con el tema de Arizona…me parece mas sensible poner los ojos allá que lo que aisladamente sucede aqui en México D.F.
This comment might be outdated but the advice isn’t, which is why not simply leave Mexico. I know it might be seductive and picturesque but its moral groundings simply suck, everything is just twisted. And I’m a privileged mexican! Have you seen how advertising is biased toward using white models olnly? That would never happen in the states. Mexico suck leave before it’s too late.
I know this post is rather old, but the stories and comment still apply to the age we live in. I am
Canadian but heritage is West Indian and My skin colour is rather dark. I visited Mexico twice. The first time was when my family and I won a trip through a popular travel site here in Canada. We all experienced racism, even to the point where we weren’t served on the airplane and ignored on our flights. When we travelled outside the resorts people often stood and took pictures of us saying we were black. People even called us “negroes”. Even though we are Indian ancestry. I loved the beauty of Mexico and really want to go back. But I don’t want to be upset by certain racist people either.
Vanessa – just a quick observation. Without dismissing any of your other comments regarding how you were treated, the word “negros” in Spanish is not equivalent to the word “negroes” in English in that it carries no negative connotations per se.
Also, I can’t help but intuit, based on what you wrote, that the reason you felt insulted was your own racism against black people, which would be pretty rich.